I've been offline for a few,days while I decided whether to continue to blog, following the discovery of a lurker who suddenly saw fit to tell me that I am failing my horses in spite of never having met them or me. And was rude enough to continue her criticism when I made it clear that I felt it was unfair. The comments on the previous post are there for you to read if you wish.
Frankly, I am baffled as to how anyone could have read a post written when I was feeling really ill, and translate it into Ace going so wrong that I would need to sell him. Personally, I think I've done pretty well to rehab a horse with significant memories of pain to where he is schooling beautifully. We had one bad hack. Does anyone in the horse world seriously think horse training is an unbroken upward path?
So, an update. The day after I left Ace safely in a field across the road, unable to graze because of the way I had secured his reins, I took him out for exactly the same hack again. You'll remember that I had put him in the field to ensure that he did not achieve his objective of napping to get to Radar.
On the rerun of the hack, with the worst of my combined cold and flu jab (baaaad timing!!!) over, he was great. He attempted to nap at the sheep again, but was easily prevented. On the two schooling sessions since, one outdoors and one in, he's been utterly delightful. Quiet, responsive, flexible and happy to take up the contact again without fear that his back will hurt.
This morning in the barn his walk to canter was just beautiful, and the canter walk almost as good. I really enjoyed riding him on a snow covered arena yesterday and looking at the size of bis overtrack :-)
You'll also be pleased to hear that Radar has been in work for three days. The abscess never brewed again, he either absorbed it or it was 'just' a bruise, though clearly a really severe one to go on so long.
He did a superb schooling session this morning and seems finally to understand
how to work into my hands and use them to help himself balance. I daresay this will disappear again when he's in full hunting mode, but it's very welcome right now and bodes well for some potential unaffiliated eventing next year that I am toying with doing with a good friend of mine.
The questions now are whether Radar will be fit enough to hunt on Saturday, and if so whether the hunt is actually on, with the weather we have forecast ......
Watch this space.
C
If you never let him say anything and simply upped the training until he broke mentally, you would have ignored his back until he failed physically.
ReplyDeleteChew on that, Fran
Just switch it back to invite only.
Well, I've read her comments and apart from the (as you say) commenting on a horse and rider she has never even seen - unless she has taken her stalking/lurking to truly horrifying levels - they seem to boil down to the fact that you should have been teaching Ace who is boss.
ReplyDeleteShe's ignored the clear evidence from you and your vets that this was a horse in pain who had memories and learned responses to be re-learned. I see so many horses here who are labelled as "naughty", "bolshy", "sharp" when in fact the behaviour is a response to pain.
How would it help to show Ace that you aren't going to listen to him at this stage in his rehab?
I never want to dictate to any horse, let alone a riding horse whom I have a partnership with, to the point that they can't question me. Should I have over-ruled Felix when he refused to let me ride him into a bog on the moor? No - he knew better than me.
For me it would be a sign of unthinking arrogance to always wish to dictate to a horse. I'd rather have a conversation because I don't think they are as simple or as robotic as Fran seems to and often they have a very fair point to make.
PS: Having (briefly!) ridden Jazz in his heyday I don't recognise the horse Fran describes at all. He was a huge character, full of expression and joie de vivre, a massive personality and enormous fun.
Oops - should read "(as you say) absurdity of commenting"...
ReplyDeleteMost of my commentary to Fran is in the post below. It's pretty clear from the comments here that most of us think of "asking" a horse to do something rather than forcing. There are times when force may be necessary--for a vetting procedure or in and emergency--but riding an intelligent, sensitive horse demands balance and an understanding of that horse's mind and body.
ReplyDeleteIf you read the wisdom of the old masters, it becomes clear we are working with living, thinking beings that deserve more from us than dominance.
Was wondering what had happened! I echo everything said above.....
ReplyDeleteGlad all is well with Ace and Radar
Lyndac
Caroline,
ReplyDeleteI do hope you are feeling better, today sounds like it has been far more productive for the both of you.
It is worth noting that although this is a public blog, you do hold the power to restrict access to its content…
I have followed your story, and that of your horses – on this blog, the blog preceding and via your regular posting on public forums. There is a wealth of information regarding your horses, and your training methods online for all to see and critique. There are well-documented examples of your horses (past and present) behavioural quirks (ridden and in hand) to reference.
Indeed I have seen Ace ridden by Caroline in the flesh; so do feel qualified to comment in that respect – whether my comments are valued or approved of, is another subject entirely.
I have only acted and commented upon the information to hand. Which could be concluded wholly fair.
I have already mentioned areas that I feel are of concern - to the progress of not only Ace, but also Caroline as the rider/owner - and I can say no more. Let us – you and I Caroline, at least – keep this polite and civil. I’ll agree to disagree, and return to reading and watching your progress (if I am able to).
Regards, Fran.
I don't think anyone has been uncivil here.
DeleteThere are many riders/trainers who will not take on difficult horses and many more who give up on horses that are far from perfect. Ace would not have had a chance with many of the riders I know, just as my horse would have been cast off long ago.
We know now that most of Ace's behavioral and training issues were caused by pain. I am predicting that given some time to overcome his memories of that pain, he and Caroline are going to have a really good time together developing their dressage skills.
So you've seen me ride Ace and now see fit to mention it?
ReplyDeleteThat must have been at Beaver because that's the only place we've ever had an audience. So you've seen me ride a horse who we now know was in pain and you wanted me to be harder on him???
And you didn't know what I was feeling from him yet knowing now that he had kissing spines, you think you can tell me how to ride him?
You've been reading my blog for years and yet you have failed to notice that every single horse in my care, bar only a blind one, improved?
That I have sold many of them on to happy new owners , often making a fair bob or three along the way?
What blog have you been reading, cos it ain't mine?
And what posts have you been reading to think that you need to tell me, of all people, that horses need black and white boundaries? Talk about grandmothers sucking eggs!!!
I regret that you will be continuing to read my blog in the hope that I will fail and prove you right Fran. But it is not in my nature to ban people.
But please understand that it is none of your business whether I progress as a rider or not, and that I do not seek further input from you on how to train either myself or my horses.
This post is also rhetorical and I particularly do not want you to respond to it.
Do introduce yourself to me next time we are at Beaver together.
C Trayes
My discussion is with you Caroline, I will only respond to your posts.
DeleteIt is all well and good to declare you do not desire a response; however posts like yours above and below cannot be ignored (especially when you seem to be rather missing the point at times). If it is such a regret that I will continue to read your blog, make it private – it’s quite simple and is a solution you have often suggested to others when they receive advice they are not in agreement with.
It has been mentioned before that I have seen you ride. Although why that would any difference to our discussion, I am not sure.
I think you are misinterpreting my OP – I am not suggesting you whip him into a white foam to get the response required, I was suggesting that you don’t let Ace decide what response is required. If at home he gets to walk/trot/canter whenever he wants (or indeed stand fully tacked in a field instead of working), why on earth should he listen to you at another or time?
If I am interpreting your paragraph ‘...what posts have you been reading to think that you need to tell me, of all people, horses need black and white boundaries? Talk about grandmothers sucking eggs!!!’ correctly (and forgive me if not, it is hard to detect over the internet); then you are insinuating my own horses do not have boundaries. You are at liberty to pursue that train of thought, but horses without boundaries do not consistently score high 60’s at PSG, they do not score over 80 at Novice and they do not score over 70 at Elem (and with their background and breeding, boundaries and sympathetic schooling are necessary). No eggs to be sucked here, thanks. Horses are happy and so are we. Were they not, their results and progress would surely not be as glowing?
Furthermore, our trainers and sponsors continue their support and are also pleased with all areas.
As an aside, I appreciate I am very competition orientated but there is truth in saying that a horses’ competition record is a reflection of the training in place. (Though there are extenuating circumstances of course such as young horses, inexperienced riders and even the atmosphere at ‘big’ shows can make the most established of horses lose confidence in themselves and the rider.)
Of course it is none of my business; it was only a suggestion from me to you and a public blog. At the end of the day, it is only a comment and you are perfectly capable of taking or leaving it.
I would press though, that you will indeed have to progress as a rider, in order for Ace to progress, that is how it works... As he becomes stronger and more established, you will need to be there to rider that stronger and more established horse.
I trust that all makes sense now and I feel I have clarified all I can. Please note my comments are intended to be completely neutral; it is no fun being frustrated with an activity you ought to be enjoying and it is a situation of which any horse rider would be sympathetic.
Good luck with Ace, we’ll compare progress in a few years maybe.
Regards, Fran.
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DeleteMy kindle has just gone crazy :-) the 0 and the personally appeared out of nowhere. I think k it needs a firmer hand :-)
DeleteC
Fran I have just actually read your middle paragraphs,and I am now convinced that you are unable to read things straight. How on earth do you interpret me telling you that you are trying to teach me to suck eggs as any criticism of you or your training?
DeleteI do not know who you are. I couldn't care less who you are or what your scores are. And I have never criticised any person's riding on line and I'm not about to start with someone I don't ever recollect seeing ride.
C Trayes
Restoring reply deleted above to remove swearwords :-)
DeleteYou write what you like Fran. I do not believe that someone who has seen me ride a horse with ulcers and kissing spines, and even knowing that in retrospect, advocates demanding more from the horse, has a single thing worth saying to me that is worth reading.
I don't know who you are to think you have some duty to improve my horse management, But if it's OK with you, or not OK with you, I'll be continuing to listen to my horses and to my new instructor, and not you.
If you want to disseminate your wisdom into a void, do so.
Meanwhile, who do you think I'm going to be comparing my progress with? You? I couldn't give a care how your achievements compare to mine, Fran. I compete for a day out and for fun, not to collect points. Many people get better competition results than me. So what?
If Ace never despooks enough in public to get another point in his life, that won't matter. He's a joy to ride at home and my instructor is confident that we will be able to teach him grand prix movements because of his innate ability. Presumably, having seen me ride him for much longer than you have, she also thinks that I am capable of training him.
If anyone else is wondering what dreadful riding Fran has seen, you've already seen it on the videos I've posted. Sadly she can't have seen the ones,when he scored over seventy per cent, before his back really started to cramp his style and we didn't have the camera with us for those tests.
ReplyDeleteC
I remember those videos clearly. Now that I know about Ace's kissing spines, his behavior makes perfect sense. Add the ulcer issue to that and you had a real handful. I was amazed how well you rode through it all.
DeleteNow, I am sending good thoughts that all that is gone for good. You've done more than right by Ace so far. Keep up the good work.
I saw them too. And I saw a horse in pain, and mentioned it. Caroline has never ignored a single comment about her horses' well being and followed up on every one. They are treated better than I am, having just discovered I myself need spinal surgery.
ReplyDeleteHow many other owners have you met who set up heat lamps for a horse, understanding the difference between defiance and despair?
I don't care of she points at him all day with a carrot stick and he does nothing but Spanish Walk for the next ten years or Caroline decides to putter the trails forever more. That horse is cared for with the best that can ve offered. Most horses would have been euthanized with that xray, not given a chance to heal.
Go pound salt, Fran. It can't pucker up things any worse than they are since you seem to believe your way is the only way.
It's not.
I'm so sorry to hear the you need surgery Styric, but I'm hopeful for you that it will at least reduce your pain. I can recommend a spine surgeon, but he would want to put you in stocks, if that's ok with you :-) ?
ReplyDeleteTake care.
C
Ooh, the kissing spines surgery for horses would not work with humans. We need those ligaments intact in order to stand upright. I already talked to my orthopedic doctor about that. *G*
DeleteJean, I think I love you cause I said the same thing to mine lol
DeleteThe surgery would be the last of niggling things that put me in pain. If I qualify and it's a success I will be free.
DeleteAnd I can ride again.
I'm happy!
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ReplyDelete