Watched the reposted vid and yes i'll give you the stride length :)
As I said before to me he has obvious natural cadence and presence but regardless of his natural head carriage I do think he looks behind the leg and not really accepting of the contact. I appreciate you were pushing him out of his natural rhythm for the judge but I still don't think he looks like he's swinging through.
I'd love to see some footage of him relaxing into a rhythm and contact to truly get an idea.
Out of interest I use Prelim classes very much as training, so all about achieving what I want from the horse, not necessarily altering the horse's way of going to please the judge for a high mark, but that's just my opinion of the purpose of Prelim I guess.
I sound like i'm being uber critical and antagonistic, I truly don't mean to as i'm sure you know i'm not like that at all, i'm just finding this debate about his way of going interesting.
And don't get me wrong - he is lovley, and will be awesome, but i'm just not quite seeing what the judges are obviously seeing.
By the way I definitely missed who his sire is. We have a recently gelded horse on the yard that is the spit of Ace and has the same presence, he's by Furst Heinrich...don't suppose it's the same?
The Germans laugh at the British for the length of time we tend to keep our horses working long and low. My friend trains with Ferdi Eilberg on a very similar horse, and they work their horses in at least as high an outline. If it's good enough for them, and if it's what Ace wants to do, it's good enough for me. They actually get her to start each session by lunging the mare in extremely short side reins. I won't do that, but neither am I going to work Ace longer or lower in a Prelim test, because we are only out doing Prelims for him to lose all his nerves and gain a little more strength and give us all a day out.
He did not want to do that test at all after resting on the lorry. The warm-up was quite an issue. I'm thrilled that he knuckled down and gave me a decent performance when I told him to.
I'm sorry you can't see what the judges are seeing, but he's now routinely scoring around the 70% mark with super comments from different listed BD judges, so I'm very happy with how he's going.
I've watched your friend's Riccione offspring and I think it is on its forehand the whole time Cassie. That outline is not what I want for Ace, who, from what I can see, is built much more uphill than that one.
Interesting to hear your views. Personally I don't think friend's horse is on the forehand, it's working in a longer more relaxed frame, which I think lets it swing through its back - a longer and lower frame laying the foundations of training for everything else to be built on. As stephen clarke says in the vid commentary his outline and way is going is correct for his stage of training (paraphrasing).
Personally i'd be concerned about the stresses placed on a young horse that hasn't yet learnt balance etc working in a more upright frame.
Obviously the judges really like him and what he's showing but to me he's not showing a prelim outline or submission.
However you're happy with his way of going, and judges are scoring him well, many roads lead to Rome...or dressage stardom :)
Stephen Clarke saw Ace working in a similar outline to my video just before I bought him and said that he is Grand Prix Small Tour potential, possibly even higher. He also trains the seller on another half-brother and he has the same carriage as his father too.
I did not listen to the commentary, but I completely accept what he says with the proviso "given the ability and the conformation of the horse".
I don't like the flat way your friend's horse moves, or the way it is made with the lower set on neck. I would not have gone to see it if that video had been one I saw of a horse for sale. I chose Ace precisely because of his innate preference to work uphill.
We'll have to agree to differ Cassie. I think you make a mistake of interpretation between seeing a horse who naturally carries itself long and low and one who naturally carries itself higher. (not to mention that one is in a relaxed training session and the other in a 4 minute test in a competition environment). At this stage, I will also willingly exchange a little submission, (provided it is improving every time out, as it is), for Ace's expression and presence.
This is Ace at 4 just before I bought him in a training session with Stephen Clarke at his yard. The head unsteadiness is due wolf teeth and the fact that the rider is a bit ham fisted (I think she may have been a bit wary of how active he feels when you ride him, he was such a baby too).
This is the sale video that made me go and see him.
I think Ace is cracking, and i'm not disagreeing he's got huge potential, but to me he looks tight through his back which appears to affect his way of going eg contact,rhythm and fluidity of paces.
I accept Ace has a naturally higher head carriage, but that shouldn't necessarily mean he's not taught to go in a longer looser frame? In your vid he's almost hopping in the odd stride where he's tight through his back.
Can't watch the vids as on my phone but will do so later.
Cassie if you read, I explained the hopping in the original text and again in a later comment. He is spooking at K, at E/S and anticipating the left canter transition. Frankly I did a brilliant job keeping him going at all, he was getting quite excited about things :-)
I also cannot see the slightest point in taking a horse that works the way you want it to work in future, and making it do something it doesn't want to do, so that you can work at undoing it all later and putting it back where it wanted to be in the first place.
Can I just remind you that I personally ride this horse? Dressage judges who see him in the flesh disagree with you, so do I, and to be quite honest now I'd like you just to accept that if I FEEL that the horse underneath me is doing the right thing then you should just accept that, given that this is my blog?
Further suggestions like this one:
"Personally i'd be concerned about the stresses placed on a young horse that hasn't yet learnt balance etc working in a more upright frame. "
that infers that I will cause him long term damage if I continue to ride him the way HE is built to go, will not be welcomed from anyone who has not ridden him and felt it.
Cassie, if you can't distinguish between a horse working freely in a 60x60 arena and one in a 20x40 dressage test needing to do transitions at a set marker, then your comments on my blog are frankly worse than useless.
I had no problem with discussing your points but you were rude in some of what you said and you repeated yourself several times as if you could make me agree with you by saying it over and over again.
I take it you reposted the video? He still looks good to me.
ReplyDeleteWatched the reposted vid and yes i'll give you the stride length :)
ReplyDeleteAs I said before to me he has obvious natural cadence and presence but regardless of his natural head carriage I do think he looks behind the leg and not really accepting of the contact. I appreciate you were pushing him out of his natural rhythm for the judge but I still don't think he looks like he's swinging through.
I'd love to see some footage of him relaxing into a rhythm and contact to truly get an idea.
Out of interest I use Prelim classes very much as training, so all about achieving what I want from the horse, not necessarily altering the horse's way of going to please the judge for a high mark, but that's just my opinion of the purpose of Prelim I guess.
I sound like i'm being uber critical and antagonistic, I truly don't mean to as i'm sure you know i'm not like that at all, i'm just finding this debate about his way of going interesting.
And don't get me wrong - he is lovley, and will be awesome, but i'm just not quite seeing what the judges are obviously seeing.
By the way I definitely missed who his sire is. We have a recently gelded horse on the yard that is the spit of Ace and has the same presence, he's by Furst Heinrich...don't suppose it's the same?
Cassie.
Ah very definitely not Furst Heinrich...just found your link to his sire Riccione.
ReplyDeleteFriend has a youngster by him too and small video clip of his way of going in training for comparison re head carriage etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=n6sKuKwwr2k
Cassie.
The Germans laugh at the British for the length of time we tend to keep our horses working long and low. My friend trains with Ferdi Eilberg on a very similar horse, and they work their horses in at least as high an outline. If it's good enough for them, and if it's what Ace wants to do, it's good enough for me. They actually get her to start each session by lunging the mare in extremely short side reins. I won't do that, but neither am I going to work Ace longer or lower in a Prelim test, because we are only out doing Prelims for him to lose all his nerves and gain a little more strength and give us all a day out.
ReplyDeleteHe did not want to do that test at all after resting on the lorry. The warm-up was quite an issue. I'm thrilled that he knuckled down and gave me a decent performance when I told him to.
I'm sorry you can't see what the judges are seeing, but he's now routinely scoring around the 70% mark with super comments from different listed BD judges, so I'm very happy with how he's going.
C
I've watched your friend's Riccione offspring and I think it is on its forehand the whole time Cassie. That outline is not what I want for Ace, who, from what I can see, is built much more uphill than that one.
ReplyDeleteC
I've watched it again this morning and it also looks to me like its neck is set onto its chest at a completely different angle from Ace's.
ReplyDeleteCan you tell me how old it is?
C
He's 4 or 5 from memory.
ReplyDeleteInteresting to hear your views. Personally I don't think friend's horse is on the forehand, it's working in a longer more relaxed frame, which I think lets it swing through its back - a longer and lower frame laying the foundations of training for everything else to be built on. As stephen clarke says in the vid commentary his outline and way is going is correct for his stage of training (paraphrasing).
Personally i'd be concerned about the stresses placed on a young horse that hasn't yet learnt balance etc working in a more upright frame.
Obviously the judges really like him and what he's showing but to me he's not showing a prelim outline or submission.
However you're happy with his way of going, and judges are scoring him well, many roads lead to Rome...or dressage stardom :)
Stephen Clarke saw Ace working in a similar outline to my video just before I bought him and said that he is Grand Prix Small Tour potential, possibly even higher. He also trains the seller on another half-brother and he has the same carriage as his father too.
ReplyDeleteI did not listen to the commentary, but I completely accept what he says with the proviso "given the ability and the conformation of the horse".
I don't like the flat way your friend's horse moves, or the way it is made with the lower set on neck. I would not have gone to see it if that video had been one I saw of a horse for sale. I chose Ace precisely because of his innate preference to work uphill.
We'll have to agree to differ Cassie. I think you make a mistake of interpretation between seeing a horse who naturally carries itself long and low and one who naturally carries itself higher. (not to mention that one is in a relaxed training session and the other in a 4 minute test in a competition environment). At this stage, I will also willingly exchange a little submission, (provided it is improving every time out, as it is), for Ace's expression and presence.
C
This is Ace at 4 just before I bought him in a training session with Stephen Clarke at his yard. The head unsteadiness is due wolf teeth and the fact that the rider is a bit ham fisted (I think she may have been a bit wary of how active he feels when you ride him, he was such a baby too).
ReplyDeleteThis is the sale video that made me go and see him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmCWuGYaj6o
I'll agree to disagree :)
ReplyDeleteI think Ace is cracking, and i'm not disagreeing he's got huge potential, but to me he looks tight through his back which appears to affect his way of going eg contact,rhythm and fluidity of paces.
I accept Ace has a naturally higher head carriage, but that shouldn't necessarily mean he's not taught to go in a longer looser frame? In your vid he's almost hopping in the odd stride where he's tight through his back.
Can't watch the vids as on my phone but will do so later.
Cassie if you read, I explained the hopping in the original text and again in a later comment. He is spooking at K, at E/S and anticipating the left canter transition. Frankly I did a brilliant job keeping him going at all, he was getting quite excited about things :-)
ReplyDeleteI also cannot see the slightest point in taking a horse that works the way you want it to work in future, and making it do something it doesn't want to do, so that you can work at undoing it all later and putting it back where it wanted to be in the first place.
Can I just remind you that I personally ride this horse? Dressage judges who see him in the flesh disagree with you, so do I, and to be quite honest now I'd like you just to accept that if I FEEL that the horse underneath me is doing the right thing then you should just accept that, given that this is my blog?
Further suggestions like this one:
"Personally i'd be concerned about the stresses placed on a young horse that hasn't yet learnt balance etc working in a more upright frame. "
that infers that I will cause him long term damage if I continue to ride him the way HE is built to go, will not be welcomed from anyone who has not ridden him and felt it.
C
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteMy blog, my last word.
ReplyDeleteCassie, if you can't distinguish between a horse working freely in a 60x60 arena and one in a 20x40 dressage test needing to do transitions at a set marker, then your comments on my blog are frankly worse than useless.
I had no problem with discussing your points but you were rude in some of what you said and you repeated yourself several times as if you could make me agree with you by saying it over and over again.
I wish you well.